In Conversation With Ireti On Culture, Religion & Womanhood In Nigeria

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In this latest issue in the VSM(Voice & Soul of Millennials) series on culture, I spoke with Ireti Oluwagbemi on the varying structures and institutions that affect what it is to be female in Nigeria. Since the hash tag #beingfemaleinNigeria went viral world wide, I have been very much interested in the dynamics governing how female identities are created and policed in the supposed giant of Africa- Nigeria. Being a fellow native, it hit close to home.

It’s not everyday that one gets to connect online with a forward thinking Nigerian millennial, so during my last trip to Lagos, I met up with Ireti at the concept store and cafe in Lekki known as Stranger.
Enjoy the magic that ensued!

 

S: Please introduce yourself to the readers.

I: My name is Ireti Oluwagbemi.. Gosh, how does one do this without sounding narcissistic?(we both laugh). My name is Ireti Oluwagbemi, I’m 24, live and work in Lagos, Nigeria. My day job is presenting at an online station; and my true love is writing.

 

S: When you hear the word culture, what resonates with you?

I: Most times when I hear the word culture, it pisses me off. I think most of the time, the context I’ve heard that word in, it has been used as an excuse that the people even saying it know that it shouldn’t be. It’s like the final card, like an all purpose last resort used to justify stuff people know is wrong or don’t think about, or are too lazy to consider because it doesn’t concern them.

 

S: So in terms of Nigerian culture, are there any aspects you really like or enjoy?

I: Yes. I like the things that deeply speak about our history as a people without marginalising anyone. For example, naming ceremonies by the Yoruba people before religion(which is culture’s older enforcer brother) took over, I was taught in school that they would put a pinch of salt in the baby’s mouth and say this baby’s life would have meaning the way you need salt in food to make it savoury, they use palm oil as well and different things like that. So I really like those because they are interesting and unique. I’m Yoruba and I think the language is very rich and there’s so much context to it. So I do actually like that aspect of culture. Funnily enough, I also don’t mind kneeling down to greet, like if I go somewhere with my mum it’s fine although my knees may not exactly touch the floor(laughs).

What I really like is the stuff we’re not doing anymore. However, we’re holding on to the ones that help us to enforce all these silly old laws. Like it’s not cool to speak Yoruba anymore in elite Lagos. There’s lots of pretentiousness in Lagos in my opinion. For example, you’ll see someone that has an idea, then they just throw in a native name to give this illusion of being connected to the culture which I think a lot of the time is for the benefit of the outside world because Africa is still viewed as this very exotic but misunderstood place, so sometimes people tap into that.

 

S: Are you religious?

I: I’m very fluid. I’m Agnostic, Christian and Agnostic Christian.

 

S: Lol, what does that even mean?!

I: First of all, I like to play devil’s advocate and it’s also because I’m indecisive. I basically had to renounce everything that I knew and learned in church and I’m sort of picking the things that I want in my own terms and deciding what I believe in. So I probably am not as religious as my mother would like, but I do go to church(laughs). I’ve learnt not to swallow things wholly just because it came from someone standing on a podium. For example, I attend the church that I do because it’s the closest one I can easily walk to. However, I have to cover my hair, but I do not believe that my hair is a sin to the God that made me.

 

S: You previously mentioned religion which I believe is intertwined with culture. What are your thoughts on how it allows or prevents us from doing certain things?

I: I believe religion and culture are a pair of enforcer brothers; and the most effective pair ever. There’s a story I wrote about one day in church, during an interactive session where there was an educated woman from an upper class(the kind everyone wants to talk to and associate with in church) who was asked about surviving marriage; and the things she was saying, I honestly could feel my face getting hot. I was livid. Like what is this shit! And she said: “women too can get to make decisions in the home. So when your husband comes home, you’ll run him a bath, you cook his favourite meal, then rub his head and say- dear, I think we should do things this way”  

(dramatic pause)

S: Laughing…

I: And this is the one that bursts my head, someone then asked, if he says you’re stupid, can I say it back at him? And she said “Don’t say that to him o, don’t talk to him like that o, because if he slaps you, don’t tell Pastor that he slapped you o.”

 

S: Isn’t that encouraging abusive relationships?

I: Yeah and insinuating that sometimes you even deserve it for saying something that someone else just said to you. I don’t know if I’ve explained it well, but that’s a microcosm of everything that is wrong because most of these people are lower class or lower middle class and a lot of them look up to people like her. So when someone in a position of influence like her is saying things that they’ve been taught by their culture and is at the pulpit with the reinforcement of religion(and religion is the opium of the people. Nigeria is a frustrating place, so people depend on religion), she has all the cards. How do you begin to combat that?

So those 2 things- religion and culture, are the most powerful things to indoctrinate people and they are saying the same thing. They are the two greatest things stopping us from evolving as a society in my opinion.

 

S: Wow, that was really profound. Will you say in our generation, being millennials, things are beginning to shift and people are thinking outside the box, and like yourself, exploring religion and culture for themselves?

I: Definitely. I know quite a number of people that think the way that I do. But then, the people that I know and the people that they know are probably like 20% of the youths in Nigeria. So for every me or every you, there are 4 other people who don’t even know that they need to unlearn things or question what they know. Someone once said to me that the purpose of school is to teach you how much you don’t know. A dear friend of mine who’s a doctor was telling me how when he  finished the final year, at the school they said- congratulations, you’re now qualified to begin to learn the practice of medicine.

So yes, there are people evolving, but what of those who aren’t? They are the majority, so I can’t celebrate that there are a few more people that think the way I do. The change hasn’t reached where it should and we’re not doing enough to try to get there.

If I walk along Yaba market, despite all that I think I know, or how enlightened I’ve told myself that I am, if I’m wearing something that the guy in the market think is for prostitutes(for example), or that I’m asking for it(that’s the common sentiment), he can grab and pull me.

 

S: I remember reading one of your blog post where you said that and was enraged. I couldn’t believe it.

I: Yes! That’s my reality everyday. I have to arm myself with something in my bag I can swing at anyone who tries to physically abuse me. It’s like why do you think that you have a right to touch me? So even if I’m enlightened, a street guy can still pull me and say ashawo(prostitute) which is very humiliating. So for all you think that you know, it’s not going to help you at that point. So I don’t revel in the fact that more people are enlightened. No, it’s not at where it should be.

Also, these people are the ones that need it the most. For example, the woman who is pregnant and has a horrible condition, rather than go to the hospital is going to the church and they’re praying for her or are flogging her to get the demons out of her.  So, yeah it’s changing but meh..

 

S: What is it to be a female in Nigeria?

I: Hell! Now, I don’t think that Nigeria has it the worst. We have it really bad, but there are countries that are worse. But still, it’s very challenging and a struggle everyday. You’re lucky if you live a whole day without an incident that makes you so enraged because it’s so endemic.

It’s a constant struggle to reassert yourself and have boundaries. You can’t walk down the street without someone catcalling, it seethes me the fact that people you don’t know feel that they have the right to violate your physical space and autonomy over your body.  And lots of times, people are genuinely puzzled when I get upset about it. They say- but he’s just playing with you. They honestly do not see anything wrong.

How do you even start to combat that? Where do you start from? They say “Ah you’re doing shakara(acting fly)…. you’re not even fine” And I think- ok, let my ugly ass walk down in peace then!

The magnitude and how deep it is, is disheartening. So I’ll say, being a woman in Nigeria is a constant struggle to reassert yourself- on the streets, in the office, at home, at a restaurant..

Things like this even happen with the elite. I feel that there’s a lot of pretentiousness to enlightenment in Nigeria. It’s another ostentatious thing. So a lot of it is not genuine. You’re an African woman after all some people will still tell you…

You’re in a hurry to go back huh?

 

S: Laughs… no. What you get on a visit is definitely different to the everyday reality. It’s definitely an eye opener if I’m to return.

Why are we as women who experience these struggles not rearing our children, especially the males, to know and do better?

I: Let me tell you, women are very culpable. Patriarchy is an all gender club, the purpose is still the exaltation of the penis but, it’s an all gender club. There are women who have grown up experiencing these struggles but either the indoctrination is so bad that it never occurs to them that they can question things(you cannot under-estimate the influence of culture and the power of religion. And very often, these two have the same goal, and it’s almost indestructible). So first of all, they do not know to question things or they know it is wrong and don’t feel it can be changed because this is the “culture”. The worst anyone can say is “this is our culture” or conversely, if you do something that goes against old notions, “that isn’t our culture” or “our people don’t do this”

Also, one of the common misconception about feminism is that it’s women hating men or women wanting to be like men. It’s not really about the men, it’s a fight against the system. It’s not individuals that you’re fighting, it’s actually something much greater- an ideology, a way of life for a lot of people. So it’s not about petty stuff, there’s really more serious socio-economic implications to this. Personally, it’s more about that than who does this or those that in a home. Of course, sometimes those things come up because in a relationship there’s always going to be a dynamic. However, a lot of people think it’s just an excuse for women getting what they want or wanting to get special treatment.

 

S: Since my return, I’ve noticed a sort of dynamic in the different ways women are treated if they are married as opposed to being single. Tell us about it.

I: There are these memes that were floating around on Twitter where there’s an old picture of someone and then a new one that say’s upgrade. In Nigeria, the old is when a woman is single and the upgrade is when she’s married. So a married woman is more respectable and it’s what ladies should aspire to. The truth is that for all terms and purposes, for a lot of people, a woman is infact a property. “Which is why as a married woman, you’re supposed to be more respectable.”

For example, you go to a wedding and then you’re being prayed for by well meaning people that pray your turn is just around the corner. How about you ask me before all these prayers? How about you pray that 5 million is gonna be in my account? (laughs).

So as much as you’d like, it’s not something you can tear yourself away from. It’s never quite easy. You’re fighting against everything else and for some people, they just succumb and follow things as they are because it’s a lot of work, and no one want to always have to exert their energy.

 

S: Do you have an idea of what may bring about solutions or change people’s attitude towards these issues?

I: It’s an enormous problem that I’m not really sure of how we begin to combat it, but I think something like a nationwide campaign and it has to come from influential people we look up to. And things like implementing legislation. For example there’s a legislation about rape but only 18 people have been convicted of rape and let’s not even talk about statutory rape which is what happens when people marry under age girls.

So ideally, it has to come from voices many of us look up to. If there can be some avenue for actual important discourse with these people that hold the real power, like the Imams(Islamic leaders), the Obas(Yoruba kings), the Igwes(Igbo kings), the Emirs(Muslim ruler), and Sultans(kings of Muslim state), if there can actually be a pan-cultural or pan-ethnic or pan- religious conversation, it’s not the government or the policeman that can be bribed with your 100 Naira(30 pence). Honestly, these powerful people can reach more people and we cannot bypass our opponent’s greatest weapons and influencers and hope to win the war. And this isn’t going to be easy because a lot of them believe in these things or want things to remain as they are because it benefits them.

In a country where lots of our religious leaders are preaching these same things, it’s not going to be easy because a lot of them just go with the status quo and it benefits them.

——————————————————-

This has been the most profound VSM conversation I’ve had so far. Ireti has been able to candidly share her views on religion, culture and womanhood; and how these complex ideologies interconnect to affect and shape women’s identities and what it is to be female in Nigeria.

Having these type of conversations with enlightened people was the inspiration behind the VSM( Voice & Soul of Millennials). It’s great that thanks to the internet, we can now all share ideas and experiences across geographical borders and landscapes. So if you ever feel alone in your thoughts or beliefs, know that there’s someone else like you out there. The mission of this series is to bridge that gap, connect like minded people and inspire others.

What are your thoughts on the views shared in this conversation? I’d like to hear from you, leave your comments below.
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9 Comments

  1. Akara ogheneworo

    April 11, 2016 at 2:36 pm

    Still one of the smartest humans i know. 🙂 Awesome responses Ireti.

    • Lize

      April 11, 2016 at 2:38 pm

      Yup, she’s awesome!

  2. Lolade

    April 13, 2016 at 12:19 pm

    Nice one Ireti

  3. Ehmie O.

    April 15, 2016 at 9:46 pm

    What an outstanding interview! Interesting questions and her responses were so profound. I’ve been re-reading it and I have to say that it’s like I discover something new and enlightening each time.

    • Lize

      April 18, 2016 at 1:12 am

      Thanks for your comment. I totally agree, Ireti is awesome. Definitely one to watch on the changing narrative on what it is to be a Nigerian woman.

  4. Olanma Mang

    April 28, 2016 at 5:43 am

    Very interesting interview! Hmm…being a woman in Nigeria. Honestly it was not too often I felt the hands of sexism extended to me (but then again, I was a young teenager when I left). However,there were little things that my aunties would say to me like there was one time I was having really bad cramps (I mean they were excruciating!) and my aunty wanted me to do the dishes. I told her what was going on and that I wanted to sleep a little then do the dishes after I woke up. She told me, “No, go and wash the plates now. When you’re married and you’re on your period, will you not take care of your family? Will you say you cannot be a wife and a mother because you have cramps?” I think I was around 14 years old. That remark led me to ask (not my aunty, but myself), “But won’t my husband help? Will he see me having a hard time and still demand that I do the chores? Will he not help around the house? Will he not help with the children we both made?” It was the first time that it really hit me that women were viewed lesser than men and gender roles existed. And I just could not bring myself to accept that I am lesser than my male peers just because I am female. I am expected to clean up after grown men because I am female. I am expected to serve everyone because I am female. I am not allowed to be unmarried past the age of 30 without being ridiculed because I am female. I am not allowed to have lofty aspirations because I am female. Tufiakwa! Being female is not a curse abeg. In my nuclear family, my parents encourage me to be the best I can be and to dream big. They sometimes still struggle with gender roles but they do not believe that a woman is lesser than a man or vice versa. This I am grateful for. It is only with my extended family that I experience all of this. The three basic needs of every human are food, clothing and shelter and every human, regardless of their gender, should be able to provide these things for themselves.

    I guess it is a gradual change in this mindset but at least it is better to be slowly progressive than to be steadfastly stagnant. It would be wonderful to see a Nigerian society where my biggest achievement is not getting married (which honestly I believe is not an achievement really. It’s more like stuff that happens, you know like choosing to wear the yellow sundress because you feel happy or something like that lol).

    I want to go on but I think i’ll stop here. This comment is way longer than I had planned it to be. lol.

    • Lize

      April 28, 2016 at 6:37 am

      Wow thanks for your in depth comment Olanma. It’s interesting to see at what age other women began to question these gender roles. It scares me to think other women who continue to propagate this cycle never did or did and believe women are lesser. lol, your comparison of marriage to a dress decision made me smile, and I agree it shouldn’t be the most highlighted achievement of a woman and in fact is no achievement at all! Well said. Thanks again for contributing to this discussion. Don’t be a stranger 🙂

  5. Caty

    May 10, 2016 at 7:37 pm

    Great interview! I enjoyed reading it from start till end without pause. I always want to find out about things, topics, anything really from lands far away, as far away from mine. But you know, reading this interview with Irene and finding out about the woman’s situation/position in Nigeria, along with the comment of Olanma Mang I reached the conclusion that being a woman in Nigeria is very much similar to being a woman in Romania (where I come from) or being a woman in any country. Maybe not to the same degree. We have freedom here, but as far as the prejudices,beliefs, misconceptions, religion and culture, I think a woman, on an international level if you want, struggles to overcome.
    I also had a conversation once with a member of my extended family. During that chat we were just generally making conversation, talking about family, jobs, children..when that person, a man, told me bluntly and directly in my face that basically my education and aspirations career wise were not important. That having a job is for the man and a woman’s only job is stay home, raise children and take care of the family and household. Same as you, I just felt my blood rising. I didn’t want to make a scene or start an argument and at the time I kept quiet but I thought the same as you..a woman doesn’t make children alone, does she? So why wouldn’t the father share the responsibilities of raising the children? A child needs both a mother and a father, both present. Housework? I’m sure men can help with that too…not saying that is their main duty, but there are all sort of situations, as exemplified above. And I agree, this situation, these misconceptions are also on the women. Mothers should start the change by teaching their sons how to be normal human beings, after all, to help and support their partners, to not grow up feeling entitled to just being served everything on a golden platter, to be present in all aspects of their family’s life.

    Even that situation with people asking or praying for you to get married when you attend an event and are above 30 is sooo familiar. It happens in Romania, too. All the time. I have first hand experience with that. At 30 you are actually considered too old. If you are approaching 30 everyone is asking. I have a 1 year younger sister who also happened to get married before me, about 3 years before. At her wedding, I did not have a partner and there were about 250-300 guests. I am not exaggerating when I tell you that almost everyone or at least 1 member of each family attending the wedding as guests took the opportunity to ask me when I was getting married, or why I didn’t have a partner, and how come my younger sister was getting married, or making jokes or saying that time flies. It was a difficult day for me that day.

    And that is not even everything. Once you are married and attend an event, there’s part 2 incoming! “When are you having a baby?” “How come you don’t have a baby?” “Are you pregnant?” “Are you working on getting pregnant?” “Parents are waiting for grandchildren!” or wait, the best one “Do you have problems getting pregnant? It must be you…” because it’s never the husband receiving these questions or the one who has to put up with these comments. It’s the woman, always the woman.

    Sorry for the long comment :). Once I started I couldn’t stop my rant!

    • Lize

      May 10, 2016 at 9:52 pm

      Thanks for your comment and I’m glad you enjoyed the interview. Don’t worry about it’s length! I love to hear more views on these issues. And wow! seems your culture is quite similar to the Nigerian one. Yes, we also get the whole why are you not pregnant thing after marriage too. This just shows women all over the world deal with a lot of unnecessary bullshit. Thanks again for joining the conversation I loved reading your views and experiences.

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